March 03, 2018
<sgp_> 0. Introduction
<sgp_> We would like to welcome everyone to this Monero Community Meeting!
<sgp_> Link to agenda on GitHub: https://github.com/monero-project/meta/issues/186
<sgp_> Monero Community meetings are a discussion place for anything going on in the Monero Community. We use meetings to encourage the community to share ideas and provide support.
<sgp_> 1. Greetings
<sgp_> 2. Community highlights
<sgp_> XMR.RU has translated many important articles into Russian: https://www.reddit.com/r/Monero/comments/81owe8/xmrrureport_february/
<monerobux> [REDDIT] XMR.RU-report (February) (self.Monero) | 8 points (91.0%) | 4 comments | Posted by TheFuzzStone | Created at 2018-03-03 - 09:06:46
<sgp_> The Ledger team posted their latest update a little over a week ago: https://www.reddit.com/r/Monero/comments/7zez0g/ledger_hardware_wallet_monero_integration_some/
<monerobux> [REDDIT] Ledger Hardware Wallet - Monero integration : some news #7 (self.Monero) | 368 points (96.0%) | 56 comments | Posted by cslashm | Created at 2018-02-22 - 13:45:50
<sgp_> There is an important Core Team announcement. binaryFate will replace tacotime as a Core Team member: https://getmonero.org/2018/03/01/core-team-announcement.html
<sgp_> Here is a discussion regarding the bulletproof audit request: https://forum.getmonero.org/7/open-tasks/89993/bulletproofs-audit
<sgp_> The date of the hardfork is still not set. There will developer meetings every Sunday until the hardfork, including tomorrow.
<sgp_> Does anyone else have any updates I missed?
<sgp_> (other than FFS ones of course)
<rehrar> you didn't think I'd miss this meeting
<serhack> sgp_ : https://www.reddit.com/r/Monero/comments/7zet99/serhack_updates/
<monerobux> [REDDIT] SerHack updates (self.Monero) | 85 points (99.0%) | 38 comments | Posted by serhack | Created at 2018-02-22 - 13:19:02
<sgp_> How's Mastering Monero coming along serhack?
<serhack> The cover : https://i.imgur.com/woJmssA.jpg I think I must mark the help from the community members
<serhack> Anyway I'm going very good at writing, some users (cryptochangements, 4matter, sarang .. ) helped me with solid feedbacks
<serhack> At the moment, there is a little draft: https://masteringmonero.com/book/monero.pdf :) It's not finished of course
<sgp_> That's great to hear! Are you still pushing the latest updates to Taiga?
<serhack> I am going to abandon the Taiga Wiki because I think it's better to have a github repo , anyway some contents will remain to Taiga :)
<serhack> I am doing all best in order to have both Taiga and Github
<sgp_> Just skimmed it (EXTREMELY quickly of course) and it's looking awesome! A lot has changed since the last time I checked
<msvb-loc> The book looks very good, well organized and comprehensive.
<sgp_> It looks like a great tool people can use to learn more about Monero. Great job!
<serhack> yes, I think it's about 60% . I would like to mark I don't want to take all credits.
<serhack> This community is awesome because we have awesome users!
<serhack> Thank you guys!
<sgp_> Anyone else have any news?
<erciccione_[m]> thanks for this serhack
<rehrar> Yeah, I do.
<sgp_> Go ahead rehrar
<rehrar> For those who don't know, I've been working on a thingy to teach the community about open source, with the goal being that the open source vision really sets the stage for the Monero vision
<rehrar> and it's hard to 'get' one without understanding the other
<rehrar> The past week or so I've directed anyone who would listen to this pad: https://public.etherpad-mozilla.org/p/thegoodxmrpad
<rehrar> where they can share their favorite open source projects
<rehrar> A good list has been compiled so far, although it's only scratched the surface.
<rehrar> I'm ready to do a launch on the initiative, and will be making a post today.
<sgp_> Great! I look forward to it
<rehrar> I'll probably be holding a livestreamed mini-conference before the weekend is over for anyone who wants to come
<rehrar> just talk about open source and chill
<sgp_> We mentioned earlier when you first introduced this initiative that it's important for people to understand the merits of open-source
<xmrmatterbridge> <cryptochangements> I'd be sure to watch it ;)
<sgp_> All right, post it in r/MoneroCommunity and I'll hop on
<rehrar> that's it for me
<sgp_> All right, time to move to FFS updates! If anyone has other items, we can get to them later
<sgp_> 3. FFS updates
<sgp_> There are several Forum Funding System updates.
<sgp_> a. RFC-HWALLET-1 project progress
<msvb-loc> The latest prototype 'Prime Platine' design is a few hours from being finished.
<msvb-loc> A board rendition is complete:
<msvb-loc> It will go to press in a couple days and I hope to have PCBs in a week, then assemble them.
<msvb-loc> Last week I visited the Embedded World (largest embedded hardware conference in the world) and spoke to manufacturers and IC chip vendors all day.
<msvb-loc> The most important thing (since we otherwise have all bases covered) is to get a stable and high quality display (OLED) supplier, so that's what I was working on.
<msvb-loc> Are there any questions about the state of Monero hardware? I have no more comments.
<sgp_> How hard do you think it will be to get an OLED supplier?
<rehrar> You guys decided on a secure element?
<msvb-loc> sgp_: Not too hard to get a supplier, it might mean we need to buy quantities or plan way ahead (since they can only deliver with 6 weeks lead time.)
<msvb-loc> rehrar: We're still intent on trying for Microchip CEC1702 secure MCU, and if that fails a Nordic nRF52840.
<msvb-loc> We will have Atmel secure elements on top of those things regardless.
<msvb-loc> Last night I met with WolfSSL and a local hardware engineer. They are partnering with Infineon on their secure elements, but it's not a good deal. Very closed, secretive, and they don't like small (OSH) groups like ours.
<msvb-loc> They are doing TPM.
<msvb-loc> rehrar: What do you think, any suggestions or opinions about this?
<rehrar> I don't have the expertise to have an opinion, but I remember it's been a point of great discussion on previous hardware meetings.
<rehrar> So I thought I'd ask.
<msvb-loc> I'm really shorting the story of course. I met with Samsung as well, because they now have low powered IoT modules with TPN and crypto inside, quite cheap. But that would divert our resources too much, because it's a radically different architecture.
<rehrar> There's nothing to say that the first Kastelo schematic released needs to be the last ;)
<msvb-loc> Ha, yes the schematic is here:
<msvb-loc> sgp_: Thanks.
<sgp_> Thanks msvb-loc. Always interesting to see what's going on on the hardware side of things.
<sgp_> b. Localization workgroup Q&A
<sgp_> I've noticed that you have been very busy lately :)
<erciccione_[m]> that's me :)
<erciccione_[m]> yes a lot of new contributors, and that's extremely good
<erciccione_[m]> also, people started using Taiga for coordination within communities of translators and i'm very happy about that
<erciccione_[m]> i've no particular updates, except for the fact that my FFS proposal will expire on the 7th
<erciccione_[m]> i'm already writing another one hoping in the support of the community. it will be out tomorrow :)
<sgp_> Sweet, you already answered my question
<erciccione_[m]> anybody has questions?
<rehrar> When Italian site? :D
<rehrar> looking forward to a complete language
<erciccione_[m]> in the new FFS there will also be a resume of what have been achived durign this 3 months
<sgp_> Thanks erciccione. I look forward to reading it
<erciccione_[m]> rehrar: i hope soon, the PR is there and it's ready to be merged, but i've been doing a lot of support this week i couldn't dedicate much time to it
<sgp_> Does anyone else have a FFS update?
<rehrar> I do
<erciccione_[m]> i hope i can push some more pages next week
<rehrar> I've got an active FFS with Kovri that's ongoing.
<rehrar> Unfortunately, on a personal level, February was a difficult and stressful time for me, and I completed about 15 out of 40 hours
<rehrar> so obviously I will not accept any payment, and will instead accept for March since things have quieted down for me
<rehrar> just an update for the community
<sgp_> Thanks for the update
<rehrar> so yeah, Jan, Feb and March will simply become Jan, March, April
<sgp_> cool, makes sense
<sgp_> 4. Bulletproof audit discussion
<sgp_> Let’s spend a little time discussing the bulletproof code audit proposal. As mentioned earlier, the proposal is here: https://forum.getmonero.org/7/open-tasks/89993/bulletproofs-audit
<sgp_> MRL’s overview and suggestions are here: https://github.com/b-g-goodell/research-lab/blob/master/audits/BP/README.pdf
<serhack> yea :) rehrar
<sgp_> Does anyone have any feedback that sarang and surae can use as they prepare the FFS request to be moved to Funding Required?
<rehrar> does suraeNoether or sarang have anything to say regarding this? :D
<sgp_> They're probably doing more important things
<sgp_> They just had another research paper dropped on their desk
<msvb-loc> What does SoW stand for, Securing of Work?
xwerter6 left the room (quit: Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
<sgp_> msvb-loc, where do you see SoW?
<rehrar> Scope of Work, I believe
<msvb-loc> sgp_: SoW is the prefix to many of the bids on:
<sgp_> ah, I see now. see rehrar's answer
<sgp_> Anyway, I'm happy that the review of bulletproofs should be happening soon
<sgp_> If there are no further comments, I'll move on
<Randolf> Hmm, SoW means Scope of Work and not Stake of Work? Hmm.
<Randolf> I guess the computer industry is a bit of a victim of acronym overuse sometimes. :)
<sgp_> 5. MoneroV discussion
<sgp_> The community needs to stay vigilant for the upcoming MoneroV fork, which poses a threat on Monero. I have seen an increasing number of news articles that reference this fork without referencing any of the possible harms. I have also seen more people think that simply using a temporary wallet removes all the risk.
<sgp_> Let’s spend some time recommending ways the community can address chain splits. How can we handle the social, community aspect of it?
<sgp_> ie: how can we effectively get the message across, even to those with no idea how Monero works?
<Randolf> Is MoneroV specifically intended to cause harm to Monero? (Sort of like how Roger Ver created the BCash fork of Bitcoin and seems to be trying to destroy Bitcoin?)
<ArticMine> We will need to provide the users with options and the long term effects
<sgp_> @Randolf it is most likely just someone trying to get rich quick, but who knows?
<Randolf> sgp_: As seems to be the case with many forks.
<xmrmatterbridge> <cryptochangements> Your video on it I think helped a lot… but most people are too lazy to watch a 20 minute video smh
<Randolf> Is this the first time that Monero has been forked?
<ArticMine> I do not think MoneroV was deliberately designed to hurt Monero
<Randolf> That's good, at least.
<ArticMine> It is the first time we have an "air drop"
<serhack> If sgp agreed with me , I could try to reach some users by writing a solid article in my blog.
<xmrmatterbridge> <cryptochangements> No, it's just the first time people are trying to participate in a scammy airdrop
<sgp_> serhack sure, the more exposure the better
<erciccione_[m]> guys i have to go. Will catch you tomorrow
<serhack> bye erciccione_[m]
<Randolf> So, referring to it as "yet another fork" could be helpful.
<Randolf> That way it keeps Monero in the "driver's seat" so-to-speak.
<xmrmatterbridge> <cryptochangements> Perhaps we could put something about it in the daily discussion thread on reddit? Yesterday I spent way too much time explaining to people that it's a scam and bad for their own privacy
<sgp_> I recommend writing a comprehensive guide on /r/xmrtrader that is stickied. But I would still like some feedback regarding what to include to best get the message across to those who think this is just another opportunity to make money
<ArticMine> Yes but will that be enough? I mean XMR at 100,000 USD and scammy XMV at 0.5% market cap or 50 USD x10?
<ArticMine> That would put MoneroV at a larger market cap than Monero today
<ArticMine> This is the kind of long term risk that I have to be concerned about
<xmrmatterbridge> <cryptochangements> I wanna know who is actually going to be buying these coins tho… literally everyone I have spoken to about it just wants to dump them
<sgp_> I think over 95% of people see this as an opportunity to dump
<msvb-loc> sgp_: Dump what?
<ArticMine> So I am in the camp of safely splitting of the XMV by using the same mixing on both chains
<sgp_> The XMV
<sgp_> In regards to ArticMine's comments, I have some news
<sgp_> Moneromooo and stoffu have been hard at work on a tool that could be used to mitigate the impact of hardforks. You can see my comment on the issue, where it provides three key features: https://github.com/monero-project/monero/pull/3322
<Randolf> As an end-user, if it's a hard-fork then I naturally see that as a benefit to me because it means that my holdings increase. The question becomes, do I keep my hard forked holdings, or do I sell them (e.g., for Monero or something else)?
<sgp_> Before you get overly excited that someone has created a tool, keep in mind this tool only works if many people use it. If only about 20% of people claiming their MoneroV use this sort of tool, then about 42% of those who use the tool will still have their transactions revealed immediately after the fork. This is still better than 100% of transactions. Furthermore, using a tool when some number of transactions exist after the fork will have significant benefits.
<ArticMine> Yes I am very much aware of their work. It provides some very critical tools
<ArticMine> To do what I am suggesting
<Randolf> My perspective, as an end-user, is that Monero is the de facto base or fallback that I can always depend on.
<Randolf> s/My/From my/
<monerobux> Randolf meant to say: From my perspective, as an end-user, is that Monero is the de facto base or fallback that I can always depend on.
<sgp_> The problem is that, with ringsize 5, we need to get over 2/3 of MoneroV claimers to use a tool like this, at least initially
<ArticMine> Ringsize will likely be a topic ant the dev meeting
<sgp_> For those using the tool to feel reasonably comfortable
<sgp_> Yeah, I'm taking about MoneroV though
<ArticMine> But yes increasing ringsize is part of the mitigation
<sgp_> We can have forks in the future that advertise themsevles as "MoneroLight" with mandatory 0-mixin transactions
<sgp_> rendering tools like these useless
<sgp_> So yes, the best thing Monero can do (tool or not) is to increase its own ringsize. I advocated at the last meeting for 7
<ArticMine> Actually such a 0 mixin fork does not pose a threat to the exixting chain
<ArticMine> Since ti does not compromise prior outputs
<sgp_> ArticMine yes, because it reuses the same key image on both
<sgp_> thus the input is still compromised
<dEBRUYNE> A 0 mixin fork would even be worse
<dEBRUYNE> Because there aren't any mitigations you can use such as using the same ring
<sgp_> it's as if you sent a 0-mixin transaction in Monero directly
<ArticMine> but only affects those who use the fork
<dEBRUYNE> Uh no
<dEBRUYNE> Not if your output is used as decoy
<sgp_> Well, the inputs still impact the Moenro blockchain
<sgp_> yes debruyne
<sgp_> I can walk you through it later ArticMine if you want
<sgp_> For the sake of this meeting though, I just want to make people aware that this tool now exists, and that we can consider options to convince people to use something like this
<ArticMine> Yes I see because they are exposed as real
<ArticMine> or spent to be correct. So they cannot be used in the future
<ArticMine> as decoys
<dEBRUYNE> It would reduce the ring size with 1
<dEBRUYNE> If they are used as decoy, because they are provably spent
<sgp_> If anyone would like to help me create posts telling uninformed people about MoneroV and what to do, I would really love your help. Send me a PM and we can get a workgroup together. Since this is a social problem, I'd rather not try and handle it myself
<sgp_> We don't really have much time left for open ideas time, but is there anythign else people want to add quickly?
<ArticMine> Yes that is the issue. But for post fork txs one has to use only post fork mixins as a defense to such a 0 mixin air drop
<sgp_> ArticMine yes, that is one of the protections included in the tool
<sgp_> Which means the negative impact wears off very quickly fortunately
<msvb-loc> Anyone have an idea of a stopgap service to run a website on kastelo.org or getkastelo.org?
<sgp_> Good question msvb-loc that I wish I had the answer to
<msvb-loc> Is there something like Hotmail for websites, that allows an idiot to create a single page site in 5 minutes?
<rehrar> what's stopgap?
<msvb-loc> rehrar: Until we can get a real website in 1-2 months.
<rehrar> msvb-loc, you don't need an idiot to create a web page in 5 minutes
<rehrar> I'm a web developer
<msvb-loc> rehrar: Yes, and you are already doing twenty things.
<msvb-loc> I know that.
<rehrar> well make it 21
<sgp_> github bootstrap template?
<msvb-loc> rehrar: Then the problem is solved, thank you very very very much.
<rehrar> I'll see if I can't get you a single page as a temp within the week
<rehrar> make a Taiga thing with all the info you want to be on it
<msvb-loc> rehrar: Okay, I'll do that.
<sgp_> Any other last-minute thoughts? Now's your last chance
<sgp_> 7. Confirm next meeting date/time
<rehrar> Happy Valentine's Day!
<sgp_> The next community meeting will be two weeks from today on 17 March. The Coffee Chat will be next Saturday on 10 March.
<sgp_> 8. Conclusion
<xmrmatterbridge> <cryptochangements> No open ideas?
<sgp_> That’s all! Thanks for attending this Monero Community meeting, and we hope to see you on /r/MoneroCommunity and #monero-community. Take care, and know that change starts with YOU.
<rehrar> meeting 'officially' over
<rehrar> but 'unofficial' open ideas time starts now
<sgp_> @cryptochangements we ran out of time, but I'm happy to still discuss them here
<xmrmatterbridge> <cryptochangements> Ok cool
<xmrmatterbridge> <cryptochangements> Someone mentioned on reddit the other day doing an AMA on r/IAmA to answer questions that people who might not really know that much about cryptocurrency might have. It could also be a chance to promote why we need financial privacy. Good idea? Bad idea?
<sgp_> Good idea imo
<sgp_> But we need to convince those at AMA why
<phx[m]> I don't feel like Reddit is the right platform tbh
<sgp_> phx[m] I still think it would be more helpful than harmful
<sgp_> The interesting part will be who they would accept. They typically need to have some formal position afaik
<defterade> I don't see an AMA producing high quality questions.
<defterade> I think it will be met with a lot of uninformed skepticism and misinformation.
<defterade> I can already see the highest upvoted comment being an essay moaning about energy consumption.
<defterade> Followed by an attempt to explain the merits of PoW, which the average /r/IAMA vistor will not understand anyway.
<sgp_> I still think it's good to answer these questions