July 16, 2017
<rehrar> Heyo everyone! It's 18:30 UTC, so it's time to start. I'd like to extend a huge welcome to our third Monero community meeting!
<rehrar> Link to agenda on GitHub: https://github.com/monero-project/meta/issues/86
<rehrar> Monero Community meetings intend to be a discussion place for anything going on in the Monero Community. We plan to use this meeting and future meetings to encourage the community to share ideas and provide support.
<rehrar> Note: this meeting may go over, since there are many topics to discuss today. If you must leave early, you will only miss the open idea and forced discussion time.
<rehrar> that was 0. Introduction btw
<rehrar> 1. Greetings
<rehrar> perfect! :D
<rehrar> With this amount of discussion, we may actually finish on time.
<rehrar> Alright then, let's move on.
<jonathancross> Hi :-) Just lurking here…
<rehrar> 2. Work groups and IRC channel reorganization
<rehrar> Some people in the community, including anonimal, have voiced concern that the community discussion channels are getting too fragmented. He suggests creating #monero-chat and moving these meetings and discussion to #monero.
<reymonero> Seems sensible
<pero> this channel does seem redundant
<pero> need moderation in #monero
<rehrar> Ok, let's discuss that. What would healthy moderation look like in #monero?
<reymonero> Meeting discussion only?
<pero> banning fib for starters
<kico> hi guys
<rehrar> hey kico
<thrmo> you can't moderate it to meeting discussion only
<vdo> well at some point if #monero gets too crowded it may be necessary, but doesn't look like it
<kico> hi 4matter rehrar!
<thrmo> some users might go there to ask legit questions about stuff not meeting related
<pero> having the meeting in a designated channel isnt a bad idea
<shillosopher> thrmo, agreed
<rehrar> indeed so thrmo, hence having a space for meetings like this entails a separate space? or we bite the bullet and allow potential interruptions to the meetings?
<pero> no this meeting shouldnt monopolize #monero
<thrmo> i think #monero is just fine, as is, to host the meetings
<pero> have the meeting elsewhere; moderate #monero; deprecate this channel
<rehrar> Some of the proposed channels include: #monero, #monero-community, #monero-meta, #monero-chat, and #monero-support.
<reymonero> maybe just a monero-meetings should be created and used exclusively as such?
<thrmo> disagree pero, #Monero is where the community should meet and thats where more people can be reached
<thrmo> it seems evident to me that the meetings should be there.
<pero> why would we monopolize that channel for a few hours
<pero> if the meeting can be held elsewhere
<pero> what advantage is there to having the meeting in #monero
<thrmo> that channel sometimes is dead for hours
<pero> but sometimes its not
<thrmo> anyway, it's besides the point
<pero> if someone has a question are they to wait for the meeting to finish?
<thrmo> #monero is the central community channel, it's were you can reach the greatest amount of people
<ArticMine> People know where to find the community meeting
<reymonero> I didnt until now
<pero> if people want to participate in the meeting they can join a separate channel
<reymonero> i went straight to monero-dev
<thrmo> pero, no, they can ask their questions
<rehrar> I agree ArticMine. As long as it is posted in advance, I don't think it's a huge issue to have it in another place.
<pero> idk thats not realistic
<ArticMine> Initially so did I
<pero> i wouldnt ask a question in the middle of an ongoing meeting
<pero> thats just rude
<reymonero> General protocol is to ask specific questions in the moment and off topic after the meeting
<pero> and odds are the question wont be seen/answered
<rehrar> Besides, the point of Monero Community meetings isn't to engage everyone, but the people who want to be a part of improving the Monero community experience. At least in my opinion.
<rehrar> Everyone is welcome for sure, but it's not necessarily a meeting for everyone, if you catch my meaning.
<Febo> actualy there were moments when people were anoying on #monero and even when asked to join other sub monero IRCs more apropriate for their talk they ignored that. But I only remeber few such moments. We have lots sub IRC and they should be forwarded there if not, they should be temp baned.
<rehrar> Any further thoughts?
<vdo> maybe doing an announcement in #monero about this channel few times before would do
<Dojixo> We could just announce the meeting/s in #monero while it is alive, and leave #monero for discussions while the meeting/s is alive
<thrmo> we restrict though, you don't need to engage a select few, why create parallel channels were info gets split, when you could have engaged like 10 more people that you wouldn't engage otherwise?
<ArticMine> I say keep it here ans announce it
<rehrar> that seems reasonable, although there is a reddit post and GitHub issue
<Guest4186> but do the newbies always know if there is a meeting underway? i think one free-for-all and one meeting/topic exclusive channel makes sense, but more is overkill imo
<Guest4186> so two in total
<rehrar> So is anyone aware of the idea of work groups that is currently being worked on?
<shillosopher> Guest4186 fib is that you?
<reymonero> Idea of work groups?
<shillosopher> just askin
<rehrar> A work group is a small group where people can get together for different purposes and with different goals. There can be a design work group, a marketing work group, a web development work group, etc. Basically a mini-community where newcomers can easily identify where they can help and can get started
<rehrar> each work group can have their own goals and things that they want to accomplish. Monero Community, long term, is a work group where people can come together with goals for managing an excellent community experience
<reymonero> ohh i see.. i thought you meant idea.. you mean the scale of groups we have here?
<rehrar> I am currently playing point person on identifying open-source self-hosted software that will help faciliate this. Things like MatterMost, Taiga, Weblate, etc
<rehrar> The idea is that each work group can have a space to discuss things that need to be done.
<rehrar> Basically look at #monero-dev. Theya re basically a work group, and can get annoyed if people pop into their channel and start talking about non-devvy things
<rehrar> while the solution may not be more and more IRC channels, eventually, each work group should be treated with the same respect to have a space where they can talk about their group's goals
<rehrar> and focus on accomplishing them, without having to weed through other discussion
<rehrar> work groups are not up and going yet (although we have some defacto ones in place already like dev and community), but I'll keep you guys posted. There's some exciting stuff on the way.
<rehrar> For now, unless there's other thoughts, I'd like to skip to 5 for the moment, since it has some bearing on the previous discussion as well
<rehrar> 5. Comments on previous meeting structure
<rehrar> Last meeting, we used a structure where there was a forced discussion by topic. Furthermore, we required people to essentially raise their hand and be called upon to ask a question. This allows for a slower yet more thorough discussion.
<rehrar> We would like to hear your thoughts on this sort of structure. It may be used again later in this meeting, though we can change it for future meetings if people dislike it.
<rbrunner> I think that only works if announced crystall-clearly
<shillosopher> I have no issue the way meetings are currently done
<rbrunner> On the fly in the meeting itself it's probably too late
<reymonero> I cant comment because this is my first community-meeting I have been available for… but the premise seems agreeable
<ArticMine> It seems reasonable to me
<rbrunner> It only kind of worked last time …
<jonathancross> It seems reasonable to me as well.
<rbrunner> Because people were not "briefed" beforehand
<rehrar> Alright. Any other discussion about these community meetings in general? Anything from where they are held to suggestions to criticisms? If so….please raise your hand (o/)
<rehrar> go for it reymonero
<rehrar> and we don't need the parantheses \^__\^
<reymonero> so is the conclusion upon these meetings that we are keeping them as seperate entities for now?
<rehrar> for now yes, from what I gather
<rehrar> we'll take a look and do further discussion
<rehrar> yes, ajs? XD
<ajs> Are logs going to be kept, if so where would they be posted
<rehrar> the logs of the last community meeting is here
<dEBRUYNE> I typically grab them, format them, and lastly commit them to the website
<dEBRUYNE> Should have them up tomorrow
<rehrar> thanks man, you do bomb
<rehrar> any others?
<rehrar> ok then!
<rehrar> 3. Monero slogan – final discussion of ideas
<rehrar> Two weeks ago, the community discussed several thoughts for a new slogan. People voiced their opinion during the meeting and on this Reddit post: https://www.reddit.com/r/MoneroCommunity/comments/6kz1ha/monero_slogan/
<rehrar> The top two submissions by votes are “Sine secretum non libertas. No freedom without privacy.” and “Privacy matters. Monero.” There may be some concerns that the first slogan may be catering only to libertarians, which is only one of the target demographics.
<rehrar> We have posted a poll here, which I would like to give everyone a moment to answer. It will help gauge whether people like the current options: http://www.strawpoll.me/13447047
<pero> theyre both bad
<dEBRUYNE> Wrt the second slogan, I'd like to suggest to amend it with "use", so it becomes, "Privacy matters, use Monero"
<rbrunner> My little contribution: a long list of all submissions: https://www.reddit.com/r/MoneroCommunity/comments/6kz1ha/monero_slogan/djz7f38/
<dEBRUYNE> I don't like it without use, it sounds a little stiff
<pero> should maybe hire a pro
<pero> instead of design-by-reddit
<dEBRUYNE> Yeah probably worth the money
<rehrar> should maybe hire a pero
<rbrunner> I was not aware that the reddit upvotes were meant to decide anything here
<rehrar> simply add a letter to pro. Practically the same thing.
<reymonero> My concern is with the word "secretum" someon else has highlighted that secretois the correct wording
<moneromooo> Who doesn't like freedom… (apart from whoever's in power at any moment in time)
<rehrar> if we get something decides on, it's not like it's never open to change though
<pero> generally ill advised to keep changing slogans
<rehrar> so we may raise the funds to hire a pro, sure, but in the meantime, I don't see how it could hurt to have something
<rbrunner> Don't tell me we won't find something on the nearly 100 proposals
<pero> it dilutes the brand for one, and creates a lot of rework
<rehrar> if you haven't already, vote in the poll, even if you choose the 'something else' option
<reymonero> Could we have a seperate poll to include the secreto instead of secretum?
<hyc> eh, correctness shouldn't be a popularity contest.
<rehrar> if you choose that option, you can have faith that the correct word will be used
<hyc> if secretum is the wrong word it has to be fixed.
<rehrar> well, pero and hyc bring up good points
<rehrar> should we look into opening a FFS for hiring a branding person?
<reymonero> I just didnt want to pick secretum and it be used knowing it maybe incorrect
<rbrunner> So it's only that one reddit thread for voting? What about the other places where proposals were submitted?
<jonathancross> Thanks rbrunner, that is a great list.
<rehrar> that list is indeed pretty bomb
<ArticMine> Why Latin rather than Esperanto?
<pero> there needs to be more thought put into this
<pero> than just 'i like this one'
<reymonero> \^ agree
<pero> so far the process seems to be random people think of random stuff
<rbrunner> We are not under pressure with a deadline, right?
<pero> and then people say if they like it or not
<rehrar> of course not
<reymonero> It needs to apply to everyone worldwide aswell… using the word freedom is quite "america" associated
<hyc> Latin - pretty universal. tradition.
<rehrar> we're just slowly dying a painful death in the markets
<rehrar> jk :P no rush at all
<4matter> need a process that leads to a hard deadline
<rbrunner> hyc: Esperanto was meant to be even more universal …
<hyc> meant to be. I don't believe it's close.
<rbrunner> Did not work out, yeah
<rehrar> and I think Esperanto would be thematic
<pero> in the ad biz, it's generally creative directors that come from the copywriting side that think of slogans
<pero> there should be plenty freelancing on behance or somewhere
<4matter> i'm with pero on this one
<4matter> we're not the experts here
<ArticMine> Some of the paid slogans are awful
<4matter> weak argument
<rbrunner> I disagree. We are the experts. Who else?
<4matter> not branding experts
<rehrar> The ideal would be to have someone with those skills that is within the community that wants to help
<reymonero> There should be enough people within the community to create and effective slogan… many famous slogans were made as off hand comments
<rehrar> but in the absence of that, we either come up with one by community or hire out, or think it's not a big deal and do nothing. Those are our three options.
<gingeropolous> what are professional slogan makers called
<reymonero> Maybe its just not the time and place at the moment and we should rush it?
<4matter> ask pero
<gingeropolous> so we can put out on reddit "hey is anyone a professional slogan maker"
<shillosopher> monero - it always goes down
<ArticMine> Community brainstorming can be a good approach to creating a slogan
<pero> it's generally an ad agency
<pero> or sometimes a specialized branding agency
<rehrar> shillosopher wins
<4matter> ask the folks at dash
<gingeropolous> so in general the idea is to get something different than "secure, private, untraceable" ?
<pero> within the agency it's a copywriting creative director that usually actually writes the words
<reymonero> Yeah what is wrong with that?
<reymonero> "secure, private, untraceable" seems to fit the bill perfect
<shillosopher> rehrar you can send the 100 XMR prize to me via tippero
<pero> well i think secure is redundant within that
<jonathancross> Do we want a slogan that appeals to us or to potential new users?
<pero> and private and untraceable are basically synonyms
<hyc> IMO secure/private/untraceable only appeals to paranoid fringe.
<shillosopher> hyc agreed
<hyc> Also IMO, Monero is the only actual currency in the crypto space currently
<pero> so it's not particularly good
<4matter> Monero: Truly Anonymous
<rehrar> as an action step for this point, what does everyone think of putting something out on reddit (and other places) asking if there is a professional slogan maker in our midst? That way things dont just stay in the theoretical.
<vdo> I don't like that\^
<rbrunner> Can't do harm, can it?
<rehrar> This way, we're moving forward in a way that is reasonable, while still being cautious
<hyc> and we should be highlighting that. Monero is money. Bitcoin isn't. ETH isn't.
<ajs> Through there was already a post
<pero> i agree with hyc
<vdo> a (better) slogan should come from the community eventually
<4matter> good point hyc
<gingeropolous> Monero. The first digital currency.
<moneromooo> So we move to another problem. How to get everyone to move into the paranoid fringe ?
<reymonero> Monero is money. Bitcoin isn't.
<gingeropolous> that should go over well
<reymonero> sounds great
<moneromooo> I suggest making the NSA spy on everyone, then leak it.
<shillosopher> push fungibility instead of anon as the main feature?
<hyc> yes. fungibility first.
<pero> the word fungibility is terrible for a slogan
<reymonero> but many normies dont understand the word fungibilty
<pero> no one knows what it means
<pero> and its quite awkward
<4matter> a lot of people are too stupid to know what fungible means
<rehrar> what if we make it user-friendly: fungiebungie?
<4matter> didn't see what u said rey
<vdo> it sounded like malleable to me, the first time
<rehrar> Ok, are there any other thoughts on action steps for this point then?
<pigeons> teachable moment for monero's differentiator
<pigeons> i know several people who are attracted to the monero community because it doesnt try to over-polish a work-in-progress and have reddit slogan campaigns
<pero> yea i can dig that
<rbrunner> Some quite blunt assertion like just a minute ago from hyc is better IMO: the only actual currency in the crypto space currently
<gingeropolous> pigeons, :)
<4matter> pigeons FTW
<jonathancross> Monero: no ceremonies, no dev tax, no BS.
<shillosopher> having a nice slogan or w/e does not mean we need to push it hard anywhere
<rbrunner> Just giving adjectives is too techy
<vdo> Moar bitcoin that bitcoin
<pigeons> yes monero should have a good slogan shillosopher I agree
<4matter> Monero: Nothing to look at.
<hyc> Moneyfor the digital age
<frantzm> Monero: currency with fluffy ponies included
<rehrar> I like that hyc
<shillosopher> Monero: Its like it doesn't even exist
<reymonero> hyc sounds good
<rehrar> I had come up with something similar: Private money for a digital world
<rbrunner> It's sometimes also called a "claim". We should go ahead and boldly claim something
<gingeropolous> Monero - the only digital money that functions as money
<gingeropolous> theres a claim
<4matter> Monero: Cash 2.0
<rehrar> alright, shall we put this to rest for now? we can pick it up later. Or we can keep going.
<rbrunner> It has to ripen :)
<reymonero> we can have a brainstorm at the end
<rehrar> alrighty, let's move on
<rehrar> as always, the discussion can continue past the meeting end, and in /r/monerocommunity
<rehrar> 4. User guides
<rehrar> sgp created this post a little while back, and many people followed through to make user guides! https://www.reddit.com/r/MoneroCommunity/comments/6m6eil/we_need_more_user_guides/
<rehrar> Even if there are many user guides available by trusted community members on different sites, it is important to also have documentation on the Monero website. Examples of this include the Moneropedia, which is more likely to be cited by news sites than a contributed site.
<rehrar> To wrap up this short section, please contribute to user guides! Examples including smart mining in the GUI, connecting to a remote node in the GUI, and updating the guide to prove a payment was made.
<rehrar> I've created a simple easy-to-follow (at least I think) way to make User Guides in the new website
<rehrar> there's actually lots of things you can do here: https://github.com/monero-project/monero-site/blob/master/README.md
<rehrar> anyways, that's that
<rehrar> 6. Upcoming events
<rehrar> Over the next 2 weeks, sgp will have talks in Helsinki, Stockholm, and Oslo. I do not know of other Monero events at this time. Please follow /r/MoneroCommunity to see postings of these events.
<rehrar> He's also looking for someone from the Paris area to contact him, since he hopes to work with them to on a presentation.
<rehrar> He's sorry he couldn't be here btw
<rehrar> If you have any events about Monero coming up, let us know. Otherwise, we can move on to the next topic.
<rehrar> yes reymonero?
<reymonero> just a suggestion… would it be preferable for people to create a presentation that we could all use rather than individual presentations?
<reymonero> a default presentation as such
<rbrunner> Or at least something that one takes as starting point
<rbrunner> Depending on the event at hand
<rehrar> I'm sure sgp and fluffypony won't sue you if you lift some of their stuff, but that's a good idea
<rbrunner> I think that could be useful
<pero> the deck pony uses is really good
<hyc> might be helpful, sure. do we have archives of previous prezos already?
<reymonero> not that i know of
<reymonero> a repo of presentations would be really nice
<rehrar> maybe it would fit in the meta repo?
<cryptochangement> \^ that sounds good
<rehrar> Alright. Who wants another fun discussion-y topic that we can disagree on?
<rehrar> 7. What to name the GUI/repo (#674)
<rehrar> There is a longstanding discussion over what to name the GUI and repo: https://github.com/monero-project/monero-core/issues/674
<moneromooo> How about… jaqueeeeeee ?
<rbrunner> Thorny issue
<pero> +1 jaqueeeeeeeeeee
<moneromooo> Too many es.
<jonathancross> How did we come to the original repo name pf monero-core ?
<rehrar> We don't have to discuss this now because we're running short on time, but feel free to comment in this github issue
<rehrar> unless we want to get into it
<vdo> jonathancross: it's in the issue
<moneromooo> Or we could leave it as monero-core, and rename monero to monero-hardcore
<rehrar> this is why we pay moneromooo the big bucks
<hyc> i've always hated calling it -core
<vdo> (spanish for wallet :)
<pero> theres a reason for it
<rbrunner> Yes that's not the core
<pero> i think only pony is capable of articulating though
<moneromooo> Seriously, I'd name it monero-wallet-gui tbh.
<rehrar> but that's just the repo name, right?
<reymonero> non-normie friendly
<rehrar> the wallet iself (like when opened) can have something different so it's not so….ugly?
<hyc> normies don't check git repos
<reymonero> maybe just something like, monero phoenix
<rbrunner> what's a normie?
<pero> monero blackhole
<reymonero> non-associated person with a specific genre
<vdo> ala electrum
<reymonero> blackhole sound good, but scary
<rehrar> I think we can name the repo something descriptive for the devs, but have the actual wallet be named something fun (and esperanto)
<rbrunner> I have my moneros in the blackhole – yeah, right
<rehrar> I personally liked Kerna
<reymonero> sorry i'll stop
<reymonero> kerna sounds good
<ordtrogen> Monero Core ?
<rehrar> or Vidi (Esperanto for View)
<rehrar> alright, moving on. Feel free to reply to the Issue
<rehrar> 8. FFS formalization I have started the process of making the FFS process more formalized. You can track the progress here: https://github.com/monero-project/meta/pull/87
<hyc> The comparison to Mozilla / Firefox is apt
<rehrar> anonimal has already made some good comments that I will be implementing soon
<rehrar> yes reymonero
<hyc> a good name is just a name - it doesn't carry the project name or purpose
<reymonero> nevermind all ask after this discussion
<rehrar> Notably, this includes the overview (https://github.com/rehrar/meta/blob/560102ec481bf731cd814138b093b733138c92b8/ffs/overview.md) and terms (https://github.com/rehrar/meta/blob/dbc6e4056f739e9323a2e1e968750dd0337854d6/ffs/terms.md).
<rehrar> We encourage everyone to make their thoughts heard in a constructive way on GitHub. We will move on now to save time :)
<rehrar> We're now overtime for sure, so if you have to leave I understand. All that's left is the Open Ideas time where people can speak freely about stuff they want to improve or see happen in the community
<rehrar> so to those that hafta split, thanks for coming!
<rehrar> for everyone else:
<rehrar> 9. Open ideas time
<reymonero> Just regarding the style of the meeting, would it be acceptable to use a partition to make the logs easier to read
<reymonero> to section off discussions
<rehrar> Now is open ideas time! Please feel free to discuss any community-related ideas you have. Let's keep up the hand raising for now to keep the discussions easy to follow and focused
<rehrar> dEBRUYNE can this be added as a part of formatting the logs?
<rehrar> anyone have anything to discuss? Make your voice heard.
<jonathancross> As far as the name of the GUI… I'd like to suggest that for most people, the GUI == Monero Wallet.
<mugatu> I heard XMR is ded
<mugatu> is this true?
<rehrar> mugatu we can neither confirm nor deny
<cryptochangement> mugatu totally. Who needs privacy am i right?
<mugatu> rehrar seems sketchy
<reymonero> If someone says it is, it must be correct
<hyc> Monero was created by DARPA, Israel and … oh wait, that's Zcash
<rehrar> I'm a bad actor
<rehrar> yes ordtrogen?
<mugatu> privacy is a scam that is pushed on those with anxiety
<ordtrogen> I came late but picked up on a meetup in Stockholm. Any details on that?
<rehrar> you can contact sgp for details
<needmultisig90> Oh, im planning on making a romano meetup in silicon valley again
<rehrar> he's in slack as sgp
<rehrar> cool, thanks nm
<rbrunner> Just a little one-shot reminder: On reddit, /r/Monero-Community still is not mentioned on /r/monero, in the "RELATED SUBREDDITS" sidebar section
<needmultisig90> Ill add it to xmrtrader too
<rehrar> alright kids, if there's nothing else: 10. Confirm next meeting date/time
<rehrar> The next meeting will happen in two weeks on 16 July. Same time (18:30 UTC). Look for another meta issue about it on GitHub. It will not be delayed another week.
<rehrar> 11. Conclusion
<rehrar> That's it everyone. Thanks for coming. Thanks for the great discussions.
<rehrar> I can only speak for myself, but I really enjoy the community here.
<pero> i dont get that
<pero> r/monero is literally 'monero community'
<pero> why is there a 'monero community' subreddit
<rehrar> work groups
<dEBRUYNE> rbrunner: Added it now
<hyc> July 16 is today
<shillosopher> rehrar on july 16 in 2 weeks
<reymonero> This is literally the only community i am involved in that has legitimately great people involved
<rehrar> hahaha oops
<jonathancross> Sorry, what is the date of the next meeting?
<rehrar> July 30th
<needmultisig90> We believe in something bigger than ourselves
<hyc> the next meeting is today :P
<needmultisig90> Namely, huge profits, amirite
<rehrar> we're having the next meeting in a few minutes
<cryptochangement> pero from my perspective, r/monero is ALL things monero, while r/monero-community is specifically about bettering the monero project
<rehrar> please stick around for it
<rbrunner> Will do, it's fun
<pero> it needs a more apt name
<rbrunner> Uh, it was already moved on from /r/Monero-Marketing …
<reymonero> Monero. Its bitcoin. Just better
<rehrar> Marketing will become a work group on its own down the road
<pero> to something even worse
<rehrar> probably… :P
<rehrar> Alright. Meeting over. Thanks for coming!
<rbrunner> Roaring applause
<reymonero> Till next time guys… bye