Logs for the Community Meeting Held on 2017-09-02
September 02, 2017
Logs
<sgp> 0. Introduction
<sgp> We would like to welcome everyone to this Monero Community Meeting
<sgp> Link to agenda on GitHub: https://github.com/monero-project/meta/issues/110
<sgp> Monero Community meetings intend to be a discussion place for anything going on in the Monero Community. We plan to use this meeting and future meetings to encourage the community to share ideas and provide support.
<sgp> 1. Greetings
<serhack> Hello!
<ArticMine> hi
<pablonero[m]> hello!
<ajs> sup
<erciccione> hi all!
<moneromax> o hell!
<msvb-lab> Hello.
<Jaquee> hi
<sgp> 2. Community highlights
<sgp> I’m going to take a few minutes to show the enormous growth of the Monero community since the last community meeting. If you are new here, welcome!
<sgp> The /r/Monero subreddit traffic nearly doubled from 817k pageviews in July to 1.553m pageviews in August. On a single day in August, over 700 people subscribed. See some charts by violentlypeaceful here: https://imgur.com/a/umPvj
<sgp> I would like to add here as a reminder that several other Monero communities are available, including /r/xmrtrader for price discussion, /r/MoneroMining for mining, /r/MoneroMarket for buying/selling, /r/MoneroCommunity (which I hope you know about :p), and /r/kovri for Kovri (the next step in extra privacy)
<serhack> Wow impressive
<sgp> Now, time to talk about some contributions by Monero community members that went above and beyond! So much happened that I worry I missed some things, but here are a few that I noticed.
<sn0wmonster> (I also have independent proof of the subs increase as i tracked this thread for 2 days and 900+ users subscribed: https://www.reddit.com/r/Monero/comments/6v4f70/celebrating_20000_subscribers_lambo_giveaway/)
<sgp> Cool!
<sgp> /u/lafudoci wrote a post today about how they built: https://xmr-tw.org/. Their translations to Chinese (Taiwan) have really built a strong foundation of knowledge. https://www.reddit.com/r/MoneroCommunity/comments/6xk7ao/my_experiences_in_promoting_monero_and_some/
<sgp> A community member who later deleted their account posted this defense of privacy that quickly became one of the top posts of the Monero subreddit. It was linked in several other communities and is well worth the read: https://www.reddit.com/r/Monero/comments/6uldp2/monero_privacy_is_not_a_crime_or_something_to/
<sgp> I added cryptocurrencies, including Monero, to the /r/privacy subreddit wiki. You can view it here and let me know your thoughts: https://np.reddit.com/r/privacy/wiki/cryptocurrency
<sgp> MONERO NOW HAS AN ANDROID MOBILE WALLET! You will need to connect it to a remote node https://github.com/m2049r/xmrwallet/releases
<sgp> VUALIFI launched, which allows anyone to make payment from Monero to most cryptocurrencies other than Bitcoin. This service compliments XMR.TO, https://vuali.fi/. They also have tor and I2P addresses available: https://www.reddit.com/r/Monero/comments/6wh131/announcing_vualifi_anonymous_payments_for/
<sgp> /u/Monerooby_Doo started a weekly Monero newsletter at http://www.monero-observer.com/. The second issue has now been published.
<sgp> And finally, rehrar and sky redesigned the Monero subreddit, with more wiki goodness to come!
<sgp> I am sure that I have forgotten something. If you have an example of a community member going above and beyond, please let us know now!
<sgp> (keep in mind there will be another section for FFS updates)
<serhack> Wow! A lot of users get involved into Monero Community :)
<sgp> The subreddit has been flooded with new users, but the moderators and greater community have done a really great job managing the influx in volume
<pablonero[m]> I also want to thank the u/monero moderators who had a hard job with all the new subscribers
<serhack> Me too :)
<floam412> that's crazy all of that above happened in two weeks… very impressive
<sgp> Anyone else, or can we move on to the next point?
<sgp> 3. FFS updates
<sgp> For those new to the Monero community, the FFS stands for the Forum Funding System. It’s like a GoFundMe with Monero, where people can pitch ideas and receive payment when set tasks are completed.
<sgp> Sarang Noether has been fully-funded https://forum.getmonero.org/7/open-tasks/87856/hire-mathematician-and-computational-physicist-to-join-research-team. He will be working on a variety of topics, including investigating ring signature proposals and blockchain bloat, efficient “future proofing” proposals, and community consensus projects.
<sgp> Surae Noether posted his August research update. This may be technical for many users here, but it shows some research progress https://github.com/b-g-goodell/research-lab/blob/master/publications/research-roadmaps/MRL-R001%20Priorities%20for%20Monero%20Research%20Lab/MRL_2017_Q1_Update.pdf
<sgp> Serhack posted his 8th integration update about web integrations: https://www.reddit.com/r/Monero/comments/6wr9nd/monero_integrations_update_8/
<sgp> Any further comments serhack?
<serhack> And soon like next week I will release prestashop plugin!!!
<sgp> Very exciting!
<serhack> You can go on :)
<sgp> My FFS proposal has been delayed until further notice due to the recent price fluctuations https://forum.getmonero.org/6/ideas/88081/justin-s-local-meetup-talks-proposal-3
<sgp> I would now like to give some time to @msvb-lab to discuss their FFS proposal
<msvb-lab> Thanks, it relates to https://forum.getmonero.org/7/open-tasks/88149/dedicated-monero-hardware-wallet/
<msvb-lab> …which describes a dedicated hardware wallet to integrate unique Monero features and allow us control over roadmap and branding.
<msvb-lab> Opensource, welcoming any contribution but mostly usage and testing.
<msvb-lab> Since probably not everyone has a circuit lab, I'll send out the PCBs once the first gen (of about ten) are done.
<msvb-lab> It is a FFS in mid stage, so any ideas, opinions, or suggestions are welcome.
<msvb-lab> …for example at the bottom of the comments page of the FFS link above.
<sn0wmonster> (do we give comments now?)
<sgp> What is needed from the community before you are prepared to aks for donations?
<sgp> *ask
<msvb-lab> sn0wmonster: Go ahead with comments.
<sn0wmonster> msvb-lab, i fully support the hardware wallet direction. i own every hardware wallet and they all suck to me because they don't cover Monero.
<serhack> How will you test the security and privacy of Monero Hardware Wallet?
<sn0wmonster> but it seems like it's pointless to even discuss it when the developers of the two main hardware wallets in the cryptocurrency space have both said "don't do it yet"
<sn0wmonster> for the record, i'm completely against trying to make a physical hardware wallet
<msvb-lab> serhack: Common side channel tools, third party decapping service.
<serhack> Okay
<sn0wmonster> its a whole tooling nightmare and investment that nobody should bother with when we already have tried and true platforms. the argument that "more is better for offsetting risk" doesn't apply so much when everything is open source and both major hardware wallet providers are willing to work with Monero's dev team to make it work for Monero
<sgp> @sn0wmonster is it because you don't want one, or another concern?
<sn0wmonster> sgp, I'm an investor over the past 2 decades in many hardware devices. it's not pretty. right now i'm working with the #neo900, and even that, with it's absolutely straightforward approach, is a nightmare.
<endogenic> sn0wmonster: may i inquire as to your professional background?
<msvb-lab> sn0wmonster: It's quite challengine, yes.
<sn0wmonster> endogenic, no comment
<sn0wmonster> i cannot imagine this community attempting to take on such a Herculean task or asking them to without first letting them know that the other wallet solutions could be programmed to work for Monero
<sn0wmonster> just seems a bad value investment
<serhack> We should think about privacy of an hardware wallet. What are the best procedures for protecting users ?
<sn0wmonster> having said that, the issue is we have to wait for a new protocol for Trezor 2.0, and the Ledger i guess "just takes time"?
<rehrar> Sorry I'm late.
<floam412> what ever happened to ledger though? are they still in the process of integrating monero?
<dEBRUYNE> sn0wmonster: I think ledger stated that their specification would be feasible
<sn0wmonster> so whether or not msvb-lab is the dude who's gonna make it happen, the issue to me is "this is the wrong time to try"
<dEBRUYNE> floam412: yes (afaik)
<vP11> I think people are free to pursue whatever ideas they have. If someone wants to develop a hardware wallet, they can just go and do it. They can ask for funds and if the community wants to fund it, then good. what needs to be super clear is the amount of time and money that will be invested.
<floam412> gotcha
<sn0wmonster> if ledger is already on the road to implementing it, and the Monero team can lend a hand when necessary, then the proposal should be entirely for the Trezor, and it should wait until after 2.0 is released imo
<vP11> and also to make it clear that other companies are already pursuing the same objective.
<dEBRUYNE> sn0wmonster: https://www.reddit.com/r/Monero/comments/6thv8j/ledger_hardware_wallet_monero_integration/
<vP11> the worst case scenario is a funding proposal that will not raise the needed amount.
<sn0wmonster> vP11, of course, free market and all, just saying as a community to remain empowered requires focus
<sn0wmonster> vP11, that's not the worst case actually. i've lived through the worst case.
<sn0wmonster> paying for it and having it fail because of X millions of reasons.
<msvb-lab> The argument against creating a dedicated wallet is that hoping others will implement into their existing designs will work well enough.
<msvb-lab> And not cost another year of no possible XMR in a hw wallet problem, too.
<pablonero[m]> I would prefer when Monero has it "own" hardware wallet and not depend on a company
<sgp> @msvb-lab have you tried working with Ledger or Trezor? Maybe an alternative approach could be to use your talent to make an integration with them easier
<floam412> Wouldn't it be a better idea to have someone continue NoodleDoodle's work on the Tezero software?
<sn0wmonster> the market makers already succeeded, unless there is a logical security concern for the existing wallets, it literally is reinventing the wheel for the sake of "Monero" branding.
<sn0wmonster> this is all my opinion of course
<sgp> Though I see both sides of this argument
<msvb-lab> sgp: Yes, that is a separate proposal in fact. It would not result in a dedicated wallet.
<ArticMine> An I have mixed feelings about this
<msvb-lab> It's proposal 88160:
<msvb-lab> https://forum.getmonero.org/7/open-tasks/88160/monero-firmware-for-ledger-wallet/
<sn0wmonster> there's also the added benefit that when a consumer orders a wallet from a third party service, it doesn't necessarily connect them to MONERO currency
<endogenic> All your opinion
<endogenic> ?
<serhack> We shouldn't depend from thirdy company
<ArticMine> How will this impact pending wallet implementations of Monero?
<sn0wmonster> endogenic, was that for me?
<endogenic> msvb-lab has lots of experience in hardware engineering
<endogenic> Yes
<serhack> Maybe you should take this advice; why don't you create a prototype?
<sn0wmonster> oh, yes of course, it's my opinion from hardware devices and working in the business, but i am not an engineer.
<sgp> @msb-lab I appreciate your thoughts for both of your proposals
<endogenic> I would generally ask the one who has seen the actual process with his own eyes to advise me of how herculean the task it
<sn0wmonster> i fully support (even financially) the software necessary to get it working on Trezor and Ledger
<msvb-lab> ArticMine: It's likely that if any other wallet maker implements XMR, that they would do so regardless of a dedicated wallet project.
<vP11> I'm not even sure what we're discussing here. Why is this related to the community? It doesn't matter if the proposal for the funding is made, the community won't necessarily "market" the project anyway.
<serhack> Ask for some xmrs in order to make a prototype, and then if everyone likes it, we should find it
<dEBRUYNE> I am not sure how beneficial 88160 would be if Ledger is already working on an implementation themselves
<sgp> I'm going to start moving on to the next point. Thanks everyone for your opinions
<vP11> good idea sgp :)
<ArticMine> 100% FLOSS firmware / software is a powerful selling point here. That is the other side I see
<msvb-lab> vP11: I'm bringing up the topic here in hopes of getting opinions and suggestions on paper.
<sgp> Keep in mind that the FFS supporting one project does not mean it will completely represent the whole community. That's the beauty of an open-source decentralized project
<sgp> 4. Translations
<msvb-lab> …in the comments section so that the proposal can be changed to meet the needs of the community.
<sgp> The website, wallets, and community resources always need help! While I applaud the current efforts to localize important Monero documents into other languages, we need more community participation.
<sgp> A great example occurred a little over a week ago, when community members worked together to add Korean translations to the next release https://github.com/monero-project/monero-core/pull/836
<sgp> If you would like to get involved in the translation efforts but do not know where to start, please ask after the meeting. Plenty of people can point you in the right direction.
<endogenic> vP11: i was also wondering why technical matters were being evaluated here
<msvb-lab> dEBRUYNE: I'm not focusing so much on 88160 for that reason. Although I'm possibly the most pessimistic person that it actually happens.
<sgp> @erciccione would tyou like to talk for a little while here?
<erciccione> can i say a word
<erciccione> @sgp thanks :)
<erciccione> all the translations are going quite fine, i've been away all august i did the korean one because i thought was very important at that time
<erciccione> right now we have 3 main things to translate
<erciccione> the GUI, kovri website, and all the promo videos
<erciccione> the main issue is the difficulty in communications, many people want's to help but they get lost when they meet the first difficulties
<erciccione> i was thinking about creating a channel: monero-translations
<erciccione> where there will be always support for newcomers or who wants to starts
<erciccione> i never did a traslation in my life before starting with monero, and i'm pretty sure what scares people is the missing of proper guidelines
<erciccione> so finally:
<needmultisig90> We could hire translators on fiverrr
<erciccione> i'd like to create a document that will help anybody to start and follow the updates about translations, and all this can be organized in monero-transaltions
<pablonero[m]> i like the idea
<sn0wmonster> needmultisig90: there's actually two proven ways that FOSS projects on Freenode do translations in a professional manner, one of them is by building the community out (like deevad did for #pepper&carrot, another is using the professional translating services where you send in the copy and it comes back to in X number of languages you requested and can be done in bulk)
<vP11> I'd like to give a word too if possible (when erciccione finishes)
<erciccione> @needmultisig90 i honestly don't think it's necessary. when i made the first reddit post "translation how you can help" i've been flooded by messages, and a lot of traslation were made in those weeks. the problem is that i had not the time to follow these people, the irc channel will solve this
<sgp> @erciccione this sounds like a fantastic idea. I highly encourage you to do this
<erciccione> i'm done, sorry if i wasn't unclear
<rehrar> ericcione, shoot me a message after the meeting please. I'd like to help you get some stuff together for this. :)
<erciccione> @sgp thanks. i definetly will!
<vP11> I have some previous experience in localization for open source projects, mainly the Mozilla project
<pablonero[m]> I find it difficult to contribute to the translations as a noob on github. Would it be possible move the transaltions to an other platform? For example Zanata?
<erciccione> @rehar will do ;)
<sgp> Translations are vitally important, and I'm glad we are having this conversation
<erciccione> pablonero: i agree github can be a pain
<vP11> first things first, let's focus on the word "localization" instead of translation. the first is a process of adapting the content to a regional/local consumption and goes beyond translating text.
<erciccione> there was a proposal about using transifex
<vP11> I guess for your purpose it's what you're aiming for, erciccione
<erciccione> but i don't know it so i can't comment
<vP11> we don't need to reinvent the wheel, there are many open source projects with multiple proven structures that we could follow, and again I'll mention Mozilla because that's the one I have more experience with
<vP11> wiki for the Mozilla localization project: https://wiki.mozilla.org/L10n:Contribute (this is to give you ideas)
<sgp> @vp11 thanks for the link
<vP11> an IRC channel is a very good idea, I like it. we can have a wiki/document with guidelines, softwares that people need to use to translate and other useful resources
<sgp> Anything else, or can we move on to open ideas time?
<vP11> I'd like to be involved on this to get a good localization platform setup so we can have a bigger reach :) will pm you later erciccione and rehrar
<erciccione> that would be really great, thanks vP11!
<erciccione> the platform is somethingreally needed right now
<erciccione> i think we can move on @sgp
<sgp> 5. Open ideas time
<sgp> It’s open ideas time! Feel free to propose your ideas to this discussion group, and feel free to comment on others’ ideas. If you disagree with the idea, please reply with constructive criticism. Thank you!
<sgp> Let's also try to focus on one idea at a time
<sgp> Who has an idea how to help build the Monero community?
<pablonero[m]> Make an FFS to get a lot of stickers and posters and send it to interested groups for free
<pablonero[m]> what do you think?
<sgp> I imagine most student groups would take free stuff
<sgp> Sounds like a great way to get local groups interested. Give them something for free and hope they talk about it
<floam412> if you are going to do something like that, I would suggest including a QR code that links to getmonero.org for people to find/research more info
<pablonero[m]> floam412: good idea
<pablonero[m]> what kind of printed stuff should we send?
<vP11> http://www.phneep.com/projects/bitcoin-propaganda/
<vP11> make Monero propaganda
<sgp> I think just the Monero logo, the name, perhaps a small tagline like "safe money for everyone", and the website is sufficient
<sgp> @vp11 yes please! haha
<vP11> it must be the 18th time I paste this link :P I really think we could get these classic propaganda posters in Monero
<vP11> they're very appealing and people pay attention to these
<pablonero[m]> vP11: nice idea. what about copyrights?
<vP11> you can easily find the "original/raw" images online. these have no copyrights.
<sgp> @vp11 can you make a Reddit post on /r/MoneroCommunity so we actually get this started?
<vP11> EXAMPLE: https://i.redd.it/z2feghbr6cbz.jpg
<serhack> Create a "Monero Meetup Kit"?
<vP11> sure thing sgp
<pablonero[m]> serhack: that's the spriti
<sgp> @serhack that would be awesome
<pablonero[m]> spirit*
<pablonero[m]> anybody wants to make a small brochure?
<serhack> Monero Meetup kit will contain some stickers, poster and a brochure
<serhack> Some instrouctions, slides :)
<rehrar> That's actually a fantastic idea, Serhack
<sgp> @serhack or @pablonero[m] can you make a Reddit post on /r/MoneroCommunity about the meetup kit?
<pablonero[m]> yes. I could also care about printing/sending
<vP11> # Revitalize the /r/MoneroCommunity with a brand new theme
<serhack> Okay, if @pablonero want to post, it's Okay else I will post
<vP11> I see very small movement on the subreddit and I don't know if it's because people are not interested or if they don't get it what the subreddit is about.
<serhack> But I have some ideas for ir
<serhack> Maybe I should post
<pablonero[m]> serhack: yep
<sgp> @vp11 I think it's because there's little content there now
<rehrar> vP11, the CSS will be up soon
<serhack> Great!
<vP11> that's cool, thanks :)
<sgp> Any other ideas in these last few minutes?
<vP11> one suggestion
<vP11> since we know the nature of reddit where the threads go down once they get old, we could probably get a pinned thread on /r/MoneroCommunity with on-going initiatives (localization, images, meet up kit, etc) with the respective thread links so people can join later
<sgp> Sure, will do
<sgp> I will replace the "why community building is important" announcement
<sgp> 6. Confirm next meeting date/time
<sgp> The next meeting will two weeks from today on 16 September at 17:00 UTC. It will be the Saturday before the dev meetings. If someone has feedback on the new meeting date and time, please let us know.
<sgp> (So, we are keeping with the Saturday meetings now)
<sgp> 7. Conclusion
<sgp> That’s all! Thanks for attending this Monero Community meeting, and we hope to see you on /r/MoneroCommunity and monero-community. Take care, and know that change starts with YOU.
<ArticMine> The change to Saturday was great fro me
<erciccione> ArticMine: for me aswell
<vP11> same
<rehrar> some people still want it after Dev/Kovri meetings Sunday
<rehrar> We can make a reddit thread about it to gather more intel, even for people who weren't able to make meetings
<vP11> I agree on that, rehrar.
<erciccione> (#monero-translations is a thing. only on irc for now, tomorrow i'll do the relays)
<sn0wmonster> just a thought, (sorry im late) "safe money for everyone" sounds like a legal liability. how about "private money" or something a little less construable as a guarantee?
<sgp> I need to take off. Thanks everyone!
<pablonero[m]> thanks!
<erciccione> ciao grazie!
<dEBRUYNE> erciccione: Could you help this guy out w/ rebasing or rebase his PR? https://github.com/monero-project/monero-core/pull/794
<erciccione> dEBRUYNE sure!
<dEBRUYNE> Thanks!
Post tags : Dev Diaries