December 21, 2019
<sgp_> 0. Introduction
<sgp_> We would like to welcome everyone to this Monero Community Workgroup Meeting!
<sgp_> Link to agenda on GitHub: https://github.com/monero-project/meta/issues/421
<sgp_> Monero Community meetings are a discussion place for anything going on in the Monero Community, including other Monero workgroups. We use meetings to encourage the community to share ideas and provide support.
<sgp_> 1. Greetings
<Snipa> Hallo all.
<learninandlurkin> hello there
<sgp_> glad to see many people here and the mattermost relay working
<sgp_> thanks for being here
<sgp_> 2. Community highlights
<sgp_> See Monero weekly highlights at https://revuo-monero.com
<sgp_> Most notably, a large portion of the community is focused on making the 36c3 a success
<sgp_> There was also "An update from the Core Team on some technical responsibilities" https://getmonero.org/2019/12/16/technical-responsibilities-update.html
<sgp_> say hello to Monero's new lead maintainer Snipa!
* sgp_ waits for at least 1 person to say hello
<sgp_> lol there it is
<Snipa> Morning, glad to be here and looking forwards to driving the project forwards.
<almutasim> Hello. Great! Congratulations to Snipa.
<sgp_> Does anyone have community (non-workgroup) updates to share?
<rehrar> I have written you a ballad.
<kinghat> you get a CEO! and you get a CEO!
<kinghat> new reocuo is out
<sgp_> 3. CCS updates
<sgp_> Funding required:
<sgp_> Sarang: research funding for 2020 Q1 (340.24 / 695 XMR) https://ccs.getmonero.org/proposals/sarang-2020-q1.html
<sgp_> Ideas (to be discussed): None
<sgp_> As discussed during the last meeting, there was a desire to have a standalone page on the CCS for donations to workgroups and contributors. I opened an issue for this: https://repo.getmonero.org/monero-project/ccs-front/issues/1
<sgp_> Is there any material you believe is missing or could be better? Unless someone else can take up this project, it will probably land on rehrar’s plate and will not be touched for a while.
<learninandlurkin> that sounds like a great idea
<ErCiccione> i just PRd my new CCSfor jan-march: https://repo.getmonero.org/monero-project/ccs-proposals/merge_requests/111
<ErCiccione> i'm also writing a comment about the past one in this very moment
<sgp_> ErCiccione: cool, we can discuss that too
* needmonero90 arrives
<ErCiccione> sgp_ i'm not completely sure that giving funds to workgroups is a good idea. I mean, how would they be managed? by whom? for what would the funds be used for?
<ErCiccione> i see a lot of possible controversies
<rehrar> with erciccione
<rehrar> I think that any workgroup that would want to receive money this way must have a statement with who will be in charge of it and how it will be handled.
<rehrar> And that info would have to be posted alongside the address so people know the terms
<rehrar> and if that's the case, it seems to a bit excessive for the CCS website.
<rehrar> Perhaps another (not core team) hosted alternative site for such a thing would be best.
<rehrar> The CCS is, at its heart, a core team arbited crowdfunding thing. I think it's slightly out of scope for the site to also have other fundraising methods not overseen by them
<learninandlurkin> I guess workgroups are meant to be their own independent entities where they can
<sgp_> ErCiccione: I was personally thinking of outreach in particular, who raised funds historically and checks in relatively often with updates
<rehrar> they never claim their paychecks :P
<sgp_> I think it's pretty clear to the donor that if they send funds to a "Monero Outreach" address, that the workgroup manages the funds as they see fit
<ErCiccione> and they are not really transparent with the rewards AFAIK. i mean, there is no public list of transactions that i know of
<sgp_> jtgrassie raised the issue that it was difficult for people to otherwise find groups to donate to outside the ccs
<ErCiccione> sgp_: but what is "the workgroup"?
<sgp_> ErCiccione: I think it's clear in this case transparency is not expected
<ErCiccione> mmh, don't know. I think if we want to have an "open fund" for workgroups, the terms should be more strict
<sgp_> it's not really an open fund
<sgp_> we're not allocating any money
<sgp_> it's a list of addresses that people can donate to if they want
<selsta> Couldn’t you also post your address on the old forum software?
<sgp_> selsta: yes
<selsta> It would be similar to that, just for workgroups.
<rehrar> technically it's against the rules
<sgp_> you could include an address in your profile
<rehrar> I'd be more comfortable with it on a separate site tbh.
<sgp_> rehrar: it's against the rules to include in the CCS ideas/in progress/etc workflow
<selsta> Who would visit that site?
<sgp_> like it or not, to most outside people, the CCS is THE way for people to find projects to contribute to
<ErCiccione> got it, but i'm still not convinced. Maybe rehrar is right and something external might be better
<rehrar> no. It's against the rules to put your address in a proposal.
<sgp_> we can try to push something else, but I'm worried that would be even more complicated
<xmrhaelan> On CCS would be the most effective way to increase support for community projects and I think it would actually help take pressure off the core team in terms of accountability
<sgp_> rehrar: in the proposal is what I meant. I don't see this as a proposal at all
<rehrar> I don't like that this centralizes the workgroups onto core team infrastructure even further.
<sgp_> rehrar: it's an optional thing
<sgp_> monero community workgroup won't be on there
<xmrhaelan> I see that concern.
<selsta> How is posting an address centralization? :P
<rehrar> the workgroups are supposed to be decentralized and separate/non-answerable to the core team. This gives core team power to deny some workgroups over others, effectively creating a "what we deem necessary" approach
<sgp_> rehrar: how is having a list of workgroups centralization?
<xmrhaelan> It’s also the best option. As has been mentioned already it would be difficult to promote yet another site
<sgp_> we already kinda have/had one
<rehrar> I just answered that. Read above.
<Snipa> The only way I could see it causing centralization would be if there wasn't a process for "How does a workgroup get included" and/or that process provided rather direct ways for a workgroup to be excluded that are obviously targets.
<sgp_> rehrar: in my opinion this concern is entirely outweighed by the benefits of having a clear page and clear discussions about what groups get added
<rehrar> then iron that out, and I'm willing to reconsider
<rehrar> but it's not currently present
<selsta> right, the alternative would be close to no donations to workgroups
<sgp_> I think we can have a page without being required to list Church of Monero, and for that to be okay
<Snipa> If a workgroup meets the process requirements, then doesn't get included, that's a different problem, but process helps to deal with that in the first place.
<xmrhaelan> So let’s plan to have a temp committee to put together a proposal for what that would look like
<rehrar> *reconsider my position
<ErCiccione> I suggest to create a mock up to show how this proposal would look integrated to the present CCS system, right now it's not entirely clear to me how all this would look
<selsta> sounds complicated :D
<sgp_> I mean, we already have a list for merchants and a basic list of requirements for them to be added
<rehrar> as written, my statement sounds like I'm the decider of this matter and I'm not
<rehrar> sgp_ yes but this is for the getmonero.org website
<sgp_> rehrar: https://getmonero.org/community/merchants/
<rehrar> oof I hate this page
<ErCiccione> tell me about it rehrar :P
<ErCiccione> updating it is no fun
<rehrar> another thing that should be moved to a third party
<rehrar> although it looks like xmr chants.
<rehrar> where we can also list some gregorian chant style Monero songs
<ErCiccione> should be completely reorganized at least, but that requires a good amount of time
<xmrhaelan> MO has discussed plans to build a directory where merchants can add themselves, but that’s a long ways out.
<parasew[m]> but i am also not sure why "libraries and helpers" are merchants
<rehrar> I think
<sgp_> didn't mean to open up another discussion here, just wanted to point out that we have something similar. I don't expect the proposed CCS page to be as chaotic
<rehrar> a workgroup page with donation addresses can be added to the main getmonero.org website if it must be on core infrastructure
<ErCiccione> xmrhaelan: no way for now, they already managed to make my life harder even with the issue template
<rehrar> the Team page was already going to be reorganized into a workgroup page
<rehrar> you know, when I'm not drowning in other work
<parasew[m]> +1 ErCiccione - reorganisation of the merchants part is a very good thing. maybe we could do this in a git repo, where the info is collected
<rehrar> but I can make that a priority after C3
<xmrhaelan> @erciccione It would be on MoneroOutreach.org
<rehrar> anyone care to discuss the merits of having the donation adddresses on this new Workgroups page on the website rather than the CCS site?
<ErCiccione> parasew: there are multiple ways to do that, better open an issue and discuss about it
<xmrhaelan> That seems like a reasonable approach
<sgp_> rehrar: what about the centralization of the workgroups page!
<xmrhaelan> ^responding to Rehrar
<rehrar> If we are really gung ho about the CCS site then I will discuss with core. But the CCS site isn't quite as hands-off about content as they are with getmonero
<sgp_> kidding, I'm open to ideas that include donation links
<rehrar> sgp_ I'm making concessions here for you
<rehrar> ideally, it wouldn't be on getmonero infra at all
<rehrar> but if you guys are adamant about it, I would be much happier with it on getmonero.org rather than the ccs
<sgp_> I'm worried it will conflict with the user mindset of "I want to make a donation, so I'm going to check out CCS"
<rehrar> If anything, a link can be added to the CCS that takes to this page on the website
<sgp_> workgroup page is more "I want to see what's out there and help out"
<rehrar> so they will still go to the CCS with "donation mode" activated, and find where to donate
<sgp_> rehrar: that could work
<sgp_> In any case, it seems like the CCS page is lower priority than the workgroups page
<rehrar> just my thoughts on the matter
<almutasim> It would be good to look at it in terms of what maximizes donations to the workgroups.
<sgp_> but that the workgroups page revamp is well overdue
<rehrar> in other CCS news, Zcoin adopted Monero's CCS.
<sgp_> rehrar, ooh, link?
<learninandlurkin> workgroup page as a central place to donate/help/contribute/contact different groups sounds better
<sgp_> rehrar: very cool, thanks for sharing
<ErCiccione> agree with prioritizing the new workgroups page
<learninandlurkin> then keep the ccs as a crowdfunder for specific work over specifc time windows
<rehrar> See? Monero puts out stuff that people want. Yay!
<rehrar> They asked us to help implement, and Xiphon and I used the opportunity to give the CCS some upgrades. Those should be rolling out to Monero in the new year.
<xmrhaelan> Perhaps we go that route, but also add a link on CCS main page pointing back to Workgroups page?
<rehrar> One of the upgrades you can see now: https://zcs.zcoin.io/proposals/test.html
<learninandlurkin> that's actually awesome. Did they get a lot of help setting up or did they just quietly take the code and launch it?
<rehrar> Clicking contribute button doesn't take to a new page.
<learninandlurkin> oh I see
<rehrar> as sometimes those pages were slow to generate or there were a few bugs in the past. And now it feels like a tighter experience.
<sgp_> rehrar: off-topic but after clicking on "milstones" I can't get back to the proposal. just keeps opening/closing the contribute
<xmrhaelan> I’ve gotta run, looks like we have some more Monero Outreach representation here now. Thanks all. Happy holidays!
<rehrar> aight, I'll see what's up with this
<sgp_> anyway it seems like we're getting sidetracked here, so we can move on
<sgp_> my fault
<sgp_> 4. Workgroup report
<sgp_> a. Daemon/CLI workgroup
<sgp_> vtnerd contributed some more networking improvements for enhanced privacy.
<ErCiccione> (remember to check out and comment my proposal pls ^_^)
<sgp_> There were many other updates to make the code more robust
<sgp_> ErCiccione: thanks for the reminder. I look forward to your writeup
<sgp_> b. Localization workgroup
<sgp_> ErCiccione: updates?
<ErCiccione> if yo uare referring to the old CSS, it will be just a short comemnt, no write up
<ErCiccione> about localizations,
<ErCiccione> not much really, but soon there will be need for translators. A lot of strings are being changed, especially in the GUI
<ErCiccione> also, in the next months i will work to put getmonero on weblate
<ErCiccione> because translating the website was fine when there weren't many updates
<ErCiccione> but with more stuff coming or changing, we really need a localization platform
<ErCiccione> the problem is that monero-site need some heay tweaks before being fully translatable on weblate
<ErCiccione> That's it, nothing else coming in my mind
<ErCiccione> oh one thing
<ErCiccione> if somebody speak brazilian portuguese, please come chat on #monero-translations. We got many commits changing/updating a lot of stuff, but there is an unprecedent luck of reviewers, and we weren't having too many before…
<ErCiccione> that's everything i can recall now
<almutasim> Weblate sounds great.
<ErCiccione> weblate -> translate.getmonero.org
<sgp_> c. GUI workgroup
<sgp_> A million small UX improvements for consistency have been raised and patched. There is a lot of ongoing discussion lately thanks to a few contributors who are raising many issues, so please participate!
<sgp_> d. Outreach workgroup
<sgp_> They have a draft ready on “RPC-Pay” tentatively scheduled for the week between Christmas and New Year’s.
<sgp_> anything else xmrhaelan almutasim?
<almutasim> We have a couple of other articles in the queue.
<almutasim> And Thunderosa is setting up an Outreach server.
<almutasim> He may have more to add on that. The plan is to have it host a Pay-for-RPC (or RPC-Pay) node.
<thunderosa> We'll be setting up Primo and trying that out as a way to help fund ourselves.
<thunderosa> I think we have a neat way to deploy their software with content and authors. We'll know more clearly in the next week or so on how that might work.
<thunderosa> Otherwise, I'm in catchup mode on the Calendar and merchant projects but expect them to move along much quicker.
<thunderosa> That's about it for me.
<sgp_> e. 36c3 workgroup
<sgp_> The organizers are going crazy in #monero-ccc and in real life preparing. The talks will be livestreamed on the Monero Community Workgroup channel https://youtube.com/c/monerocommunityworkgroup
<monerobux> [ Monero Community Workgroup - YouTube ] - youtube.com
<sgp_> Monero Talk will also conduct several interviews. Expect a lot of Monero and privacy content this holiday season. The 36c3 takes place December 27-30 in Leipzig, Germany.
<sgp_> parasew[m]: anything else?
<parasew[m]> C3 workgroup is preparing the last steps for the show which will be from 27th-30th dec in germany!
<parasew[m]> yes, i prepared some updates!
<parasew[m]> the taiga on getmonero holds some information, in case you don’t know what this is about: https://taiga.getmonero.org/project/parasew-36c3/wiki/home
<parasew[m]> There is a large gathering of privacy-related ‘assemblies’ and there will be a live stage, workshops and other programs.
<parasew[m]> Here are pics how this looked last year: https://taiga.getmonero.org/project/parasew-36c3/wiki/35c3-in-pictures
<parasew[m]> Txmr and nevvton are already in leipzig and the setup is working great!
<parasew[m]> Here are some images on the stage setup:
<parasew[m]> And this is how it will look in the end (pics of last year)
<parasew[m]> the whole cluster can hold about 200 people.
<parasew[m]> This year will be live streamed! Livestreaming will be happening from 2019-12-27 17:00 CET onwards (other days from 13:00 CET) and will be on the monero community channel:
<monerobux> [ Monero Community Workgroup - YouTube ] - youtube.com
<parasew[m]> This year the streaming and recording is coordinated by @getzi (a professional who also worked with the apertus open source cinema camera and with riat before) and @ajs!
<sgp_> (13 UTC is 7am CT)
<parasew[m]> We will have a very amazing show; here is a demo of our stream overlays http://parasew.com/dl/36c3/cdc_streamtest.mp4
<parasew[m]> There will be a monerotalk (remote) interviews with the speakers as well (just like on the last konferenco), so expect a lot of content!
<nevvton[m]> woop woop !! love it!!
<selsta> looks awesome :D
<almutasim> Looks and sounds great!
<parasew[m]> Program and website will be online after this weekend, and will be on the usual place at https://decentral.community
<rehrar> goodness there's so much to done and so much to do
<parasew[m]> @rehrar, do you want to give a short sneak peek of the site?
<rehrar> sure. But I don't have the URL on hand. Sec.
<parasew[m]> Here is a sneak peek of the site so far: http://220.127.116.11/ (content still missing, me and rehrar are on it)
<rehrar> Ay, you go it.
<parasew[m]> current state of the content is here (but is missing the program still)
<rehrar> Yeah, I'm working on that over the next couple of days. Adding assemblies, adding About section. Adding the livestream.
<parasew[m]> From tomorrow onwards, there will be further announcements regarding speakers, workshops and bonus program! (hidden gems!)
<msvb-fab> The website is quite nice so far.
* ErCiccione afk for like 15 minutes
<parasew[m]> nevvton: can you give some spoilers?
<nevvton[m]> its all about the hidden gems, right
<nevvton[m]> So we arrived safely in leipzig and started
<nevvton[m]> setting up our cluster:
<nevvton[m]> everything is running great so far..
<nevvton[m]> stage arrived.. and yes its already being rigged and
<nevvton[m]> mounted,LED light equipment, sound equipment..
<nevvton[m]> so we're actually ahead of time this year.. thats a good thing.
<nevvton[m]> currently txmr, na_tt_i and polto from switzerland
<nevvton[m]> are around helping + plus netg [not to forget overall].
<nevvton[m]> so we have a couple of early hands here in leipzig making this easier…
<nevvton[m]> – txmr is actuallyx right next to me .. so i'd also dedicate him some time .-…
<txmr[m]> we're looking forward having a great time
<txmr[m]> regarding some 42+ speakers
<txmr[m]> that signed up in total
<txmr[m]> throughout the last days of 2019.
<txmr[m]> streaming links will follow, in case you cannot make it to
<txmr[m]> regarding our daily activites at CDC-Cluster @36c3, Leipzig ->
<txmr[m]> i will post all the necessary information,
<nevvton[m]> or i could do, :)
<txmr[m]> timetables and live streaming links
<txmr[m]> daily the follwing days on respective social media channels.
<nevvton[m]> but generally we're in good company here.. ( besides: fun fact
<nevvton[m]> there was a WW2 bomb being found –:) in leipzig.. yes this happens sometimes
<nevvton[m]> so .. yeah .. part of the city (tiny 1km radius) was evacuated.. we were not within the zone :)
<nevvton[m]> but people are friendly.
<txmr[m]> very friendly
<almutasim> All kinds of excitement.
<nevvton[m]> we get big props for lasts years work ..
<almutasim> 42+ speakers is fantastic.
<parasew[m]> almutasim: it could be more, there are still some submissions missing that i know of.
<parasew[m]> If you are attending C3, please enter your workshops and presentations ASAP here: https://frab.riat.at
<nevvton[m]> people are looking forward to this years speakers, all things privacy, hardware related things.. – everything that defines the core values of our community
<nevvton[m]> we have an e-scooter (for those that are not familiar with the size of this exhibition ground - its huge!! ) saving us energy
<nevvton[m]> and its covered with monero stickers.. so people are already psyched to meet everyone at our cluster ..
<sgp_> thanks for the updates, looks like it will be a good time
<sgp_> anything else before I proceed?
<parasew[m]> This all was made possible through the CCS and a lot of voluntary work. Thanks to everyone who supported this!
<txmr[m]> i further want to emphasise on the CCS contributors
<txmr[m]> Thank you all!
<nevvton[m]> yes also from my side:
* nevvton[m] sent a long message: < https://matrix.org/_matrix/media/r0/download/matrix.org/oinctLynLkmCdxaLgbFYHhhu >
<almutasim> Lucky attendees! And lucky the rest of us with streaming.
<sgp_> nice, good luck! look forward to watching the streams
<sgp_> f. Hardware workgroup
<nevvton[m]> <sgp_ "nice, good luck! look forward to"> ty
<msvb-fab> Sorry, no report from the hardware team. I'm in the lab right now printing enclosures.
<sgp_> msvb wanted to give an update. are you here and can make it fast? Otherwise there will most likely be an update during the conference
<sgp_> ok, keep working msvb-fab :)
<msvb-fab> Otherwise, unless anyone has a specific question please move on to the next topic.
<sgp_> g. Konferenco workgroup
<sgp_> pebx continues to search for a Berlin location. He has focused only on locations that allow our own AV and catering.
<msvb-fab> Almost the same thing, my files are not with me so I can't give details of last week's Berlin venue scouting.
<nevvton[m]> i casn totally help as being a berliner..
<sgp_> nothing else to add here at the moment, other than to contact him on Reddit u/pebx if interested
<nevvton[m]> i will contaxct pebx
<sgp_> h. Monero Research Lab
<msvb-fab> Does anybody have a specific question about Konferenco 2020 venue choice?
<parasew[m]> yes, what is the venue choice
<sgp_> msvb-fab: after speaking with pebx, it seems like the venue isn't chosen yet and that a few options are still being contacted
<msvb-fab> The choice follows a report which is not stable yet. The chioce has not been made.
<parasew[m]> why not university? the venues looked expensive.
<msvb-fab> Both universities have denied.
<msvb-fab> And BBC denied, so those three are not part of the report.
<msvb-fab> Not BBC, rather BCC. Berlin Congress Center.
<nevvton[m]> i certainly can help..
<nevvton[m]> i have a couple of good options in mind..
<msvb-fab> Thanks nevvton, unless there are more detailed questions we can move on sgp.
<sgp_> next steps are to contact pebx and to get a more direct line of communication, potentially on Wire
<sgp_> h. Monero Research Lab
<sgp_> Surae made significant progress on his matching code, with preliminary results now available for validation. Sarang did some moon math. Their meeting logs are on Github under meta.
<sgp_> oh, and a nerew version of clsag is almost out
<sgp_> attend their Monday meetings if you're interested in following their progress
<rehrar> good stuff coming?
<sgp_> I'm going to skip 5. open ideas time since we're already over
<sgp_> rehrar: yeah, more work on triptytch (or however it's spelled) too
<sgp_> A few final things:
<sgp_> I need help updating this roadmap for Monero 2019 and 2020. Please contribute any major items I missed (especially website changes) https://cryptpad.fr/code/#/2/code/edit/AvAp1k1pPjW4lZ2lO3A4rr9e/
<sgp_> I worked on 36c3 and GUI tasks this week instead of writing up a draft of the emergency response process. I will focus on this more the next two weeks (lower productivity this week). Hopefully we can discuss it during the next meeting :)
<sgp_> Anything final before we conclude?
<thunderosa> Merry Christmas Monero!
<rehrar> merry christmas, happy holidays
<Jae> Let's make 2020 the year of Monero :D
<sgp_> Monero Coffee Chat: Christmas Day edition?
<sgp_> 6. Confirm next meeting date/time
<sgp_> The next community meeting will be in 2 weeks on 4 January at 17:00 UTC.
<sgp_> There will be NO COFFEE CHAT NEXT WEEK since we will already have livestreamed content for 36c3. The next Coffee Chat is on Saturday January 11 at 17:00 UTC.
<Jae> Where will be the meeting?
<sgp_> Jae: community meeting is here (#monero-community)
<Jae> Oh, ok
<sgp_> Coffee Chat is on YouTube/Jitsi
<Jae> I thought there was in a physical place x)
<sgp_> haha not quite
<sgp_> 7. Conclusion
<sgp_> That’s all! Thanks for attending this Monero Community meeting, and we hope to see you on r/MoneroCommunity and #monero-community. Take care, and know that change starts with YOU.